Blog Banter #37 – What happens in New Eden stays in New Eden

“EVE Online sits on the frontier of social gaming, providing an entertainment environment like no other. The vibrant society of interacting and conflicting communities, both within the EVE client and without, is the driving force behind EVE’s success. However, the anonymity of internet culture combined with a competitive gaming environment encourages in-game behaviour to spread beyond the confines of the sandbox. Where is the line?”

From what I read so far around the Eve Blogosphere is quite unanimous. What happens in the game stays in the game ! You really don’t want to receive threatening email on your work account from people who’s interweb spaceship you blew up the night before.

That is a somewhat extreme example, but there are some grey areas. How about hacking into the opponent’s Team Speak server ? The whole spy thing usually also involves a bit of outside the game stuff, like registering on a forum etc, but I guess that’s all part of the job.

So on the extreme end it’s pretty clear cut what should be left in game and what not, but once it comes to spying, it’s more nuanced. I guess it all depends on how badly you want to defeat your opponent and whether the means justify the end !

Blog Banter #37 is brought to you by Freebooted !

BB 36 The good the bad and the ugly

“With the Inferno expansion upon us, new seeds have been planted in the ongoing evolution of EVE Online. With every expansion comes new trials and challenges, game-changing mechanics and fresh ideas. After nine years and seventeen expansions, EVE has grown far more than most other MMOGs can hope for. Which expansions have brought the highs and lows, which have been the best and the worst for EVE Online?”

First of all let me state that I entered the world of Eve during ‘Cold War’ right before ‘Red Moon Rising’. Since I didn’t have a clue what was going on back then I can’t comment much about those two expansions, let alone the very first two ‘Castor’ and ‘Exodus’. Castor must have been exciting though, bringing in T2 components and ships !

I had to consult the wiki page on Eve expansions at to check what features were actually in what expansion. Then it hit me that 2006 – 2008 must have been the golden years of Eve looking back at how much effort was put into these expansions, and how many features they had compared to the very meagre ones CCP released the past few years. Here is a summary of the ones I remember best and enjoyed the most.

Revelations I

Think this is my favourite, it had so much in it, Exploration, Invention, New battlecruisers (ie. the Drake) and battleships, and rigs / salvaging. Also the voice over IP thing was in this, that didn’t really catch on until later, when factional warfare was released and FW fleets started using it. So much new stuff to do and find out and to train for, it was pretty insane looking back on it now. Revelations II didn’t bring that much new features to the table, only overheating comes to mind.
Links to Rev I features:

Empyrian Age
This one introduced Factional Warfare that I really enjoyed a lot when it came out. So this was one of the most game changing ones for me. Especially since I didn’t have a lot of pvp and fleet experience before. I was a proud member of the Minmatar Fleet (and still am in my heart) ! One of the best times I had in Eve was in this period, also met a lot of nice people back then.

20 new ships and a graphics engine update ! Also the infamous boot.ini feature ;).

Quantum Rise
Not as big as the previous one, but still nice, the Orca was introduced, very nice ship for us miners at the time. Grouping of modules and  more graphic updates. Also some stuff like StacklessIO was tauted by CCP, but I never understood why serverside things were introduced as features for an expansion.

The introduction of T3 and wormholes / sleepers ! As it turned out the last major expansion that really added new content. Since I never cared much for wormholes I didn’t care that much for this one, but I know it is widely regarded as one of the best expansions for Eve.

What followed then were a bunch of lacklustre expansions that were lacking in real content and quality control wasn’t so great either. This all accumulated in one of the worst expansion in MMO history Incarna which introduced (or failed to do so) ‘walking in stations’ and the ‘real money monocle’ store. But enough has been said about this I guess, if you want to know more, google around or go back a few pages on this blog ;).

So here we are, some of my favourites and some bad and ugly ones. The other participants of this interesting blog banter will be mentioned below.

Start Post at Freebooted

Inferno Campers (happy or otherwise):

A scientist in Eve has written an excellent summary on BB36.

Blogbanter #34 – CSM

Ah a new blogbanter ! It’s been a while since I participated in one ! Here we go with the intro:

The polls have just opened for the election of candidates to occupy the 14 seats on the 7th Council of Stellar Management. To kick-start a topical CSM-themed banter, CCP Xhagen – fierce champion of freedom of speech and in his words, “the guy that gets yelled at when the CSM dudes do booboos” – has offered this question:

“How would you like to see the CSM grow, both in terms of player interaction and CCP interaction?”

I have always been rather skeptical about the CSM. I figured it was used as a marketing tool to boast about in press releases that could be read on various gaming sites. This feeling was confirmed during the summer of rage last year, when the CSM was totally bypassed on rather critical gameplay decisions. But then the CSM bit CCP in the foot and they were forced to let them participate in order to try to calm down the masses, which gave me somewhat more faith in the CSM.

A CSM politician

But then the most recent devblog appeared on rather fundamental skill changes and the CSM seems to have been ignored once again. I guess CCP is happy with the CSM on the sidelines and discussing POS fuels, but rather not involve them in fundamental game changing decisions. So that would be the first thing to change. At least them have their say. It’s CCP’s game, so they will always have the final word, but at least listen to what the players have to say.

That brings me to the second point, I would feel better represented if there was not an 0.0 block in the CSM. After all most players in Eve still dwell in highsec. I do understand it’s a democratic process and I wouldn’t know how to exactly solve it, but it would be nice if the CSM would consist of a better representation of the player base.

Further Resources

And a personal endorsement, a pilot that I voted for, someone who really understands Eve and (most) of it’s players: Roc Wieler.

Blogbanter #31

With 2012 almost upon us, I think it’s appropriate to look where Eve has gone this year and where it will be going. Well since the upheavel this summer, CCP has drastically altered it’s course. This resulted in a winter expansion that actually focused on improving the Space Game !

Blogbanter #31 focused on reviewing Eve after the winterexpansion. I thought it would be appropriate to link to it, since I am not subbed at the moment and won’t give you an opinion without actually havening played the new expansion.

This special ‘End of Year’ Blog Banter edition aims to be a crowd-sourced game review. Using your gaming knowledge and experience, join the community in writing a fair and qualified review of EVE Online: Crucible. This can be presented in any manner of your choosing, but will ideally including some kind of scoring system.

Freebooted : Blogbanter #31 and the end result.


BB26: Sometimes the sum of the parts …

Welcome to the twenty-sixth installment of the EVE Blog Banter, the monthly EVE Online blogging extravaganza created by CrazyKinux. The EVE Blog Banter involves an enthusiastic group of gaming bloggers, a common topic within the realm of EVE Online, and a week or so to post articles pertaining to the said topic. The resulting articles can either be short or quite extensive, either funny or dead serious, but are always a great fun to read! Any questions about the EVE Blog Banter should be directed to Check for other EVE Blog Banter articles at the bottom of this post!

This month’s topic was proposed by @KatiaSae of the much praised “To Boldly Go” blog. Katia asks: “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As an astrophotographer, I’ve found it in the stars and planets of New Eden. Where have you found it? Perhaps you’ve found beauty in the ships we fly? Maybe it’s the sight of profits being added to your bottom line? Or maybe it’s the pilot portraits you see in the comm channels? Where ever you’ve found it, write about it and post an image.” Don’t be afraid go beyond the simple visual aspects of EVE as well. Is the EVE Community in itself a thing of beauty? What makes EVE the game, the world, the Community, so appealing to you?

This is a tough one ! Where to start ? I decided to pick three

First of all there is the graphics, just a pic here from a while ago which also appeared in one of the earlier episodes of EON. Don’t think I need to add more explanation :). It’s a joy to fly around in Eve.Manticore

Second of all is the community. Eve’s community is different from a lot of other MMOs. It’s difficulty and steep learning curve attracts different people. Yes we too have the forum warrior / whiners, but overall it’s a much more tight knit community. I don’t know of any MMO that has something comparable to #tweetfleet for example. Or just an active blog community. People might be fighting each other in game but still be very friendly outside of it.

Third of all is the progression you make. Although this sort of fades a bit when you have been playing for a long time, it’s just a joy when you can finally fly that ship you always wanted. Or to finally be able to do exploration properly, or use those tech II crystals (for the miners amongst  us). The time based skill system is very friendly to those who can’t spend 23/7 in the game. You always progress (as long as you keep paying), you don’t have to kill 10 space pirates.

Last but not least: all of the above (and many more) combined in one game. Sometimes the sum is more than it’s parts ! And that for me is the beauty of Eve.

Participants for Blog Banter #26 :

  • CrazyKinux’s Musing: Beyond nebulas and shiny ships
  • Freedom: the beauty in EvE » A Mule In EvE
  • Achernar: The bike and the barbecue
  • where the frack is my ship?: Blog Banter 26: Love at first sight
  • BlogBanter 26: EVE … beautiful … « One capsuleer against all
  • Blog Banter 26 « Mad Haberdashers
  • » Blog Banter 26: Beauty of EVE – To Boldly Go To Boldly Go
  • Down By Law: Blog Banter #26: “The Beauty of EVE” (OOC)
  • Blog Banter #26 – Beauty « Roc’s Ramblings
  • Banter #26: Beauty is in the eye of the markets | Diary of a Garbageman
  • Progression’s Horizon: Blog Banter 26- Carry It With Us, Or We Find It Not
  • Blog Banter 26: The Beauty of Eve « A Scientist’s Life in Eve
  • Freebooted: BB26: The Beauty Between the Lines
  • Eve Opportunist: EBB #26 : Beauty is destruction.
  • Blog banter #26: EVE shines, and not just visually « Diary of a Pod Pilot
  • Learning to Fly – Spinning ships since 2003
  • BB26: Beauty, in certain conditions | A Missioneer in Eve
  • Dying in Lowsec (One Hauler at a time)
  • EVE Blog Banter #26 – Beauty « Evehermit’s Blog
  • Blogbanter No 25

    Finally I am on the list for the blogbanter and I got nothing on the subject. It’s all about sovereignty and such and since I have no experience with that, I am not going to blabber on on something that I know very little of. But I will list the participants here ! Hold on to your hat as there are quite a few !


  • CrazyKinux’s Musing: EVE Blog Banter #25: And by Alliance you mean…..?
  • BB25 What sov changes will come? | A Mule In EvE
  • Confessions of a Closet Carebear: Alliances and Sovereignty
  • Blog Banter 25: Nerfing Nulsec « OMG! You’re a Chick?!
  • Have Alliances and the sovereignty system limited the amount of PVP and RP potential in Null sec? | Nitpickin’s
  • Blog Banter #25: Alliance and Sovereignty Limiting PvP in 0.0? | Sarnel Binora’s Blog
  • Blog Banter #25 – Mad Haberdashers
  • Alliances and sovereignty | Eve Online Focus
  • …Shall we not Revenge?: BB 25: What if the Alliance vanished?
  • Blog Banter: Alliances and Sov
  • EVEOGANDA: BB25: Sov ‘n Go!
  • » TBG:EBB#25 – Alliances and Sovereignty To Boldly Go
  • Freebooted: BB25: Leviathans of the Deep
  • Wrong Game Tetra ~ Inner Sanctum of the Ninveah
  • EVE Blog Banter #25 – Human nature what art thou? | Way of the Gun
  • Who cares about Sov? – Hands Off, My Loots! ~ well sorta like an entry! :p
  • The 25th EVE Blog Banter: Alliances and sovereignty – The Phoenix Diaries
  • Achernar: The space commute
  • Wandering the Void…my EvE musings. – Blog Banter: Alliances and sovereignty
  • (OOC) CK’s Blog Banter #25: How To Break EvE. « Prano’s Journey
  • Captain Serenity: Blog Banter #25 – Crappy mechanics
  • Helicity Boson » Blog Banter #25 Nullsec and sov.
  • BB #25 – “With whom lie the advantages derived from Heaven and Earth?”
  • Boom! Hull-Shot?: It’s the End of the Eve as We Know It
  • sered’s lives: EVE Blog Banter #25 – Size does matter
  • 25th EVE BB – Medieval Solutions to Spaceship Problems | Inventions of a New Eden Industrialist
  • Eve Blog Banter #25: “Have Alliances and Sov Limited PvP and RP in 0.0?” « Align Outbound
  • Banter 25: Sovereignty, Alliances and Power Blocs | TheElitist
  • Blog Banter 25 – But I just left all that! « A Scientist’s Life in Eve
  • Nobody likes losing « One capsuleer against all
  • >>>Vigil Ant: Alliances and SOV by Munny’s eyes.
  • Latro’s Bunker: Blog Banter 25 -Nullsec and Sov
  • A "CareBears" Journey » Blog Banner #25: Alliances and Sovereignty, and their affect on PVP and RP
  • Blog Banter #25 – Unstoppable « Roc’s Ramblings
  • Nobody likes losing « One capsuleer against all
  • EVE Blog Banter on PVP in Null Sec « Evehermit’s Blog
  • Sleepless in Space: Blog Banter #25: Moar Low Sec!
  • Blog Banter #19 – CCP and the CSM

    Welcome to the nineteenth installment of the EVE Blog Banter, the monthly EVE Online blogging extravaganza created by CrazyKinux. The EVE Blog Banter involves an enthusiastic group of gaming bloggers, a common topic within the realm of EVE Online, and a week to post articles pertaining to the said topic. The resulting articles can either be short or quite extensive, either funny or dead serious, but are always a great fun to read! Any questions about the EVE Blog Banter should be directed to Check out other EVE Blog Banter articles at the bottom of this post!

    This months topic comes to us from @evepress, and he asks: The CSM: CCP’s Meta Game? – The CSM, an eve players voice to CCP. Right? In the grand scheme of things yes, the players bring up issues and the CSM presents them to CCP. But in its current iteration the CSM was supposed to be given small authority to assign CCP assets to projects that the CSM thought needed work on. As it has now come out this is not the case. So fellow bloggers, is the CSM worth it, has the CSM improved the game in any way, or is it just a well thought out scam by CCP to give us players a false sense of input in the game? What’s your take?

    This BlogBanter comes at a delicate time, when the shit has hit the proverbial fan after the minutes of the latest CSM – CCP meeting had been released. If I have to answer this question at the moment, then I would say, No at the moment the CSM isn’t really worth it if no development time can be assigned to any issues. Of course it’s useful to keep the conversation going, but if it’s just talk and no action it’s pretty much useless. CCP does send out press releases about the CSM (at least I see the same type of articles on various press sites) so it’s still being used as a PR tool. Reading the latest ‘18months’ devblog and the responses by various CCP employees, I get the impression that at the moment CCP doesn’t really know what to do with the CSM and CCP_Zulu even seems annoyed by them.


    Overall though I think the CSM has been useful, if not only for the skill queue and various other accomplishments. It’s a really nice idea to have some people represent the players who bring forward concerns by the players. It’s then up to CCP to decide what will be addressed and what will not. Of course we do understand they can not do everything that’s being proposed, but at least some issues would be nice. I assume that was the original idea behind it…

    See other participants:

    1. Growing Pains | CrazyKinux’s Musing
    2. CSM: Hoax or Serious Business? « Lost in New Eden
    3. CSM-Power to the people or puppets of CCP « A whole lot of Yarrrr!!!
    4. Gaming the CSM | A Mule in EvE
    5. A Taste Of Democracy | StarFleet Comms
    6. CSM: Player Power or Paper Tiger? | I Am Keith Neilson
    7. Governance Thrash Redux? « The Ralpha Dogs
    8. CCP Doesn’t Care: Blog Banter 19 « OMG! You’re a Chick?!
    9. The Cataclysmic Variable: It’s Crunch Time!
    10. The 19th EVE Blog Banter is upon us… and about the CSM and CCP | Victoria Aut Mors
    11. CSM: Lame Duck from the beginning?
    12. Blog Banter #19 << Dense Veldspar
    13. Be careful what you say, Roc « Roc’s Ramblings
    14. Exchange Fraking Phone Numbers « Scrap Metal & Faction Ammo
    15. Blog Banter #19: Assumptions
    16. EVE Blog Banter #19 | EVE on Real Life
    17. A Reality Check | A “CareBears” Journey
    18. Quit your bitching | Fly Reckless – EVE Online
    19. War has come to EVE | Scram Web
    20. CCP and the CSM | Morphisat’s Blog
    21. More to come…

    Why I Love Eve

    But there is more to Eve than meets the eye. It’s the players, the people. The subculture around it.

    This time a special Blog Banter with a few prices attached !

    Whether you’ve logged into the game every day since its launch in 2003, or you’ve taken one or several sabbaticals from your capsuleer career, you’ve always come back to New Eden don’t you. Why is that?

    We know the EVE Online Community is unique in so many ways, and that EVE Online is like no other MMORPG out there. But what makes the game special for you?

    What is it that makes this particular virtual world so enticing, so mysterious and so alluring that we keep coming back for more. Why is EVE one of the very few MMOs to see a continuous growth in its subscriber.

    To put it simply: Why do you love EVE Online so much?

    At the moment this is a hard question for me to answer. I have only been playing very occasionally the last few months. Once you have done a lot of all the things Eve has to offer, it’s hard to motivate yourself to get back in the game and do those things again. Exploration, mining, production, Factional Warfare PVP, at the moment I have a feeling I have seen it all. I am a bit Eved out. It seems I am not the only one in the blogosphere at the moment (letrange and rettic posted similar thoughts).

    All those things I summed up are the plus points of Eve though, so don’t get me wrong. There is a lot to do, to discover, and especially to learn ! But it doesn’t come by itself, the content isn’t slapped in your face, you have to go out and do research and find everything yourself.

    But there is more to Eve than meets the eye. It’s the players, the people. The subculture around it. The blogpack, the tweetfleet, and who knows what else ! It keeps you connected to New Eden even when you’re not playing that much.


    But lately I have also been concerned about the state of the game. Eve’s lack of decent customer service. People with paid for accounts getting locked out and it takes over five days to get a response. The recent server problems and apparent lack of Quality Control on the last patch (the 0.0 part didn’t seem to work to well if I have to believe all the forum whining, although it did shake up 0.0).

    The last ‘expansion’ didn’t add a lot to the game, neither Quantum Rise. At least Apocrypha brought wormholes and T3 ships, but for some reason I don’t like wormholes at all. Maybe that explains why I am a bit Eved out at the moment, even in a sandbox, you need a few new tools to play with every now and then. It could be that this is because of the new console game that is being developed, but I doubt that that is the case, as it is an entire separate development team in China doing that. Which makes you wonder what they’re working on at the moment ? It can’t be Incarna (walking in stations) can it ?

    Anyway, I love Eve regardless, and it’s healthy to have players worried about the state of the game, rather than them just leaving, and unsubbing without a word. The Eve Playerbase cares a lot about their game and I assume CCP does as well.

    Blog Banter #9 – Randomness Be Gone !

    This month’s blog banter is a special one, as it is also a contest ! It even made the news on the Eve Online front page. You can read more about it at ck’s blog.

    Welcome to the ninth installment of the EVE Blog Banter and its first contest, the monthly EVE Online blogging extravaganza created by CrazyKinux. The EVE Blog Banter involves an enthusiastic group of gaming bloggers, a common topic within the realm of EVE Online, and a week to post articles pertaining to the said topic. The resulting articles can either be short or quite extensive, either funny or dead serious, but are always a great fun to read! Any questions about the EVE Blog Banter should be directed here. Check out other EVE Blog Banter articles at the bottom of this post!

    "Last month Ga’len asked us which game mechanic we would most like to see added to EVE. This month Keith "WebMandrill" Nielson proposes to reverse the question and ask what may be a controversial question: Which game mechanic would you most like to see removed completely from EVE and why? I can see this getting quite heated so lets keep it civil eh?"

    It wasn’t very easy to come up with something. I know a lot of things in the game could use some improvement or changes, but totally removed ? Even the things I don’t bother with in game, but other people might like, I wouldn’t want to remove.

    roll_dice_small Then one Saturday morning when I checked my invention jobs, and 6 out of 7 Hammerhead II jobs had failed, it came to me: RANDOMNESS in invention ! Wikipedia says (amongst other things) : there is the sense of lack of predictability. And that is exactly why I hate it.

    Sometimes you’re doing great and 4 out of 5 jobs succeed, then you hit a bad streak and you get one bpc for seven tries. Especially with things like HACs it is really a downer when three jobs, even with expensive decryptors fail in a row !

    Of course the cost of invention would have to be changed. Six datacores for a hammerhead invention job, maybe up to 30 for a HAC (from 8 now) and so on. I am sure someone smart at CCP could figure out the economics. But at least you would know what you’re getting and how much it is going to cost ! Especially that last part is important, you can now estimate how much an invention job costs using the online tools, but it’s not ideal.

    The title of this blogpost might suggest that I would want to remove all randomness in the game. Well, some of it is needed. Like officer spawns, exploration sites etc. Ecm as well, as loosing control over your targeting really sucks, especially when you would just totally get locked out in a fight, and you know it’s going to stay that way for as long as the falcon or blackbird is on the field. But I guess that could be the subject of another blog banter ;).

    So there you have it, my blog banter #9 contribution ! Other participants:

    1. Diary of a Space Jockey, Blog Banter: BE GONE! (ah just noticed someone else uses this phrase)
    2. EVE Newb, (EVE) Remove You
    3. Miner With Fangs, Blog Banter – It’s the Scotch
    4. The Eden Explorer, Blog Banter: The Map! The Map!
    5. The Wandering Druid of Tranquility, "Beacons, beacons, beacons, beacons, beacons, mushroom, MUSHROOM!!!"
    6. Inner Sanctum of the Ninveah, Kill the Rats
    7. Mercspector @ EVE, Scotty
    8. EVE’s Weekend Warrior, EVE Blog Banter #9
    9. Miner with Fangs, Blog Banter – It’s the Scotch
    10. A Merry Life and a Short One, Eve Blog Banter #9: Why Won’t You Die?
    11. Into the unknown with gun and camera, Blog Banter – The Hokey Cokey
    12. The Flightless Geek, EVE Blog Banter #9: Remove a Game Mechanic
    13. Sweet Little Bad Girl, Blog Banter 9: Who is Nibbling at My House?
    14. One Man and His Spaceship, Blog Banter 9: What could you do without?
    15. Life in Low Sec, EVE Blog Banter #9: Stop Tarnishing My Halo
    16. Cle Demaari: Citizen, Blog Banter #9: Training for all my men!
    17. A Mule in EVE, He who giveth, also taketh away?
    18. Dense Veldspar, Blog Banter 9
    19. Morphisat’s Blog, Blog Banter #9 – Randomness Be Gone !
    20. Facepalm’s Blog, EVE Blog Banter #9: What a new pilot could do without
    21. Memoires of New Eden, You’re Fired
    22. Kyle Langdon’s Journeys in EVE, EVE Blog Banter #9 Titans? What’s a Titan?
    23. Achernar, The gates! The gates are down!
    24. Speed Fairy, EVE Blog Banter #9: Down with Downtime!
    25. I am Keith Neilson, EVE Blog Banter #9-F**K Da Police
    26. Ripe Lacunae, The UI… Where do I begin… (Eve Blog Banter #9)
    27. Clown Punchers, EvE Blogs: What game mechanic would you get rid of?
    28. Estel Arador Corp Services, You’ve got mail
    29. Epic Slant, Let Mom and Pop Play: EVE Blog Banter #9
    30. Deaf Plasma’s EVE Musings, Blog Banter #9 – Removal of Anchoring Delay of POS modules
    31. Podded Once Again, Blog Banter #9 – Do we really need to go AFK?
    32. Postcards from EVE, 2009.
    33. More articles as they are posted

    Eve Blog Banter #7 – Treading waters unknown

    The eveblog banter couldn’t come at a better time. I felt like posting something the past few days but couldn’t come up with a proper subject to write about.

    The EVE Blog Banter involves an enthusiastic group of gaming bloggers, a common topic within the realm of EVE Online, and a week to post articles pertaining to the said topic. The resulting articles can either be short or quite extensive, either funny or dead serious, but are always a great fun to read!

    This month’s topic comes to us from CrazyKinux, and he asks: “What 3 things haven’t you done in EVE and why? Would you be willing to try one day? Why so? Why not?”

    1) Flying capital ships. The Orca is the biggest one I can fly at the moment, and I don’t thin that will ever change. I almost exclusively live in Hisec, and have  no plans to change that soon, so I have no use for them at all. Also they are quite expensive, and so are the skills. I got isk, but can’t be bothered to spend that much on something I will probably never use.

    2) Fleet warfare in 0.0. Which is probably just hanging around a lot, or jumping from system to system for hours, only to fight for about 5mins. No thanks.

    3) Invent / produce something bigger than a T2 cruiser. I might do this someday, maybe invent and produce a marauder. Don’t have any immediate plans to do this at the moment, but I might some day :).

    From what I read so far, no. 1 is pretty common, so is no. 2. Are there any bloggers actually involved in 0.0 wars ? Don’t read a lot about that, maybe the eve bloggers are a different kind :).

    People participating in blog banter #7: